Jesus only died for some sins, but not for others?
I’ve been reading up on Christianity a bit. And I have a question.
According to the Christians/New Testament, the Old Testament is all about God being pissed at us for not following 10 presumably simple rules. Hence all the wars, the murders, rapes, etc. that God himself personally ordered. Apparently, it took God 4000 years to realize that people aren’t going to change, no matter how much of them you torture and kill, so he made a (divine?) plan of turning things around. Instead of killing & tourturing sinners, he sent his son, which is sort of himself at the same time but not really (the divine trinity is supposed to be a whole, but consisting of 3 individual parts, each of which is also a whole and not in any way missing the others), to tell us to be nice to each other and do what God says, and then he would be tortured and finally murdered by the sinful “Christians” of that time (i.e. jews, Judaism being the most popular religion then, as I understand). And through this painful and bloody sacrifice, God suffered the punishment that we were supposed to suffer for not following his rules, and by doing that we have been washed clean, our sins forgiven — both past and future ones.
But here’s the thing. The very first, therefore, presumably, the most important, commandment is to believe in God as the only divine power. From that it follows that not believing in God is a sin. So here’s the question — if Jesus died so that ALL our sins could be forgiven, that should include not believing in God, right? But that would mean non-believers & atheists are also forgiven and go to heaven. But Christians keep insisting that non-believers go to Hell. So from that it follows that Jesus did not, in fact, died for ALL sins of ALL mankind, but for the sins of ALL mankind, EXCEPT the sin of not believing in God and/or Jesus, is that correct?
Christians don’t insist on that, btw. Or at least they shouldn’t. The Bible explicitly quotes “all sins shall be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” (in context: denying direct actions of God).
I see. I find it somewhat disturbing that the foulest murderer, rapist, thief, sadist and drug-addict deserves heaven/Paradise as long as he manages to convert to Christianity and confess his sins before he dies in prison, while a simple, law-abiding man who has lived all his life without breaking the Commandments, helping people and generally being a nice person is still going to be eternally tortured just for not managing to convince himself to believe in something without proof before he gets killed in the prime of his life by the aformentioned murderer — robbing him of 60 more years in which he quite possibly could have converted. No matter how much he wished and tried to believe while he was alive, and no matter how sorry he was that he failed — if you don’t convert before you die, you burn, and it doesn’t matter in the slightest how you lived your life, or how soon you left this world. I think I’m starting to see why so many people choose to believe in God, afterlife and even heaven/paradise, but shun organized religion at the same time.
Well for sure as you have pointed out about God’s given sacrifice. There is a unity of belief even right there. That is overshadowed by the doctrine of this dark time.
Also by my understanding of this time and especially what is mentioned in the writings of the Faith I am adherent to (as I understand them) there is a kind of tenant that says it is not enough to believe. True Faith and adhering to belief is not just about recognition or aligning yourself to a prophet. But fully carrying out all the things that God has handed us through that being.
And yes in the past this would seem just to be those easy and for sure now obviously good things that will keep us all living well in a normal society. But the ones written in the aforementioned writings go quite a bit further…
But yes you are so right that there are so many obvious failures in logic in most doctrinal Faiths. I personally call this the work of religionists. Those who are so vain in their wish for control and power or lust to have ‘God’s right hand’. That they think they can create laws and root into those ‘gardens of pure life’ (the words and deeds of the prophets themselves) crooked little material gaining weeds that grow fast and chock out the growth of Truth and Honour.
“How long will they kill our prophets, while we stand around and look, some say it’s just a part of it, they’ve got to fulfill the book… won’t you sing these songs of freedom, all I ever hear, are redemption songs.” Bob Marley
About killer/rapist & Good Man – Oh, you don`t know what will happen with them after their death. It`s only God`s business afterall. Humans would like to know everything and to tell God what to do, but actually… We don`t know.
And about sins – there is a passage in the Bible (one of the most famous ones) – John 3:16-18 “16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
It is written – whosoever believeth in Jesus. Not ALL people.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That`s all folks. Easy.
Inga: Ah, semantics. What does “condemned” mean in the context? I would have to presume going to hell (what else?), so, according to that passage, those who believe in Jesus will not go to hell (notice there are no exceptions mentioned — so that would include rapists and murderers, as long as they are devout believers and are sorry afterwards), while those who don’t — will (even if they cured cancer, AIDS, malaria and ended world hunger). That sounds like a screwed up father who will always love and protect his dunkard, jobless stay-at-home son no matter what he does, while the successful, kind-hearted and good natured son will be shot on sight just because he ran away from home. And the father will still insist to anyone who asks that he loves both his sons equally and only wants what’s best for them.
And you also contradict yourself. First you say that we have no idea what happens after we die, and in the next paragraph you quote a passage that says (assuming “condemned”=”goes to hell”) quite exactly what happens — non-believers go to hell while believers don’t. Which means that a teenager who is killed before he can become a believer, is then punished for that by being sent straight to hell. If God calls that “love for the world”, then he and I have very different understanding of the word “love”.
1) I don`t know what “hell” is like. Do you? Who knows exactly what God has in His mind for those who doesn`t believe in Him?
2) Rapist who really believes in God, in my mind it is only theoritical construction. How can he follow the rule of Jesus – what you do to those smallest ones, you do for me – and be killer or smth like that.
3) teenager, kid, whatsoever get killed. I have an answer on that. Again – not people (thanks God!) decide what happens after death. Only God knows motives and decisions that everyone has made. So – I believe (but that is not in the Bible, so you may say this is not truth, whatever) that God is loving Father who gives us time and love and choice and after that we can go wherever is the best place for all of us. But actually this is just a dram of mine, so, nevermind.
1) Bible gives some hints:
2) Theoretical construction? Are you serious!?
3) Before I can answer this comment, I must ask you one thing — do you believe that God decides when each of us will die? That no life ends without his knowledge and approval? Or is life’s end a matter of random chance / free will?
1) do Bible says it? Yes.
Do I believe that hell is smth like that? No.
Can I be wrong? Yes.
Will I be ashamed when it will turn out right? Yes.
Do I change my mind now? No.
Because I have my free will, I have my personal relationship with God. And I don`t believe that my Father is smth THAT brutal and medieval. Maby He is. I have my rights to do mistakes.
As for me, I know that as a christian I should go to the Heaven after death. But actually I don`t know whether that will happen. But. I am not afraid of Death (honestly. but. just my death. I AM afraid of death of my family and dear friends. Because that would hurt me a lot, not because death is smth bad). And I believe that the place I will go to after death, will be for me from my heavenly Father. So far He has always done everything the best for me. Why shouldn`t he then?
2) I don`t speak about catholic priests, you know. I speak about people that truly love God, truly rely on Him, truly believes in Him. And again – I don`t believe that a person who knows all of this (about God`s anger, about His Son and His passion) and truly lives in this knowledge, would ever harm a child or adult.
When smth really bad happens with someone, I believe that God gives strength for the person to coupe that, and for his relatives and friends to coupe with the person and situation.
Life shouldn`t be easy and happy actually. If it is, it is God`s gift. If it isn`t God gives love, patience and strength.
3) I believe that God decides everything. And that He decides who will born with diseases (mental or physical), who will born in what family. Who will hear the Good News about Jesus and who won`t (OK, He may not to decide suicides). That`s why I said from the very beginning – I believe that only God knows our grounds, our beliefs and all of us, so He decides EVERYTHING – also who gets where after death.
Not catholic church, not mormons, not baptists, no other people will decide that. Only God.
For me – every religion may say whatever they like about “what God thinks”. No one knows THAT.
Then I don’t see how you can call yourself a christian. Bible is the basis of Christianity as well as Judaism from before Christianity existed. You yourself initially answered my question with a quote from the Bible. There is nothing wrong with coming up with your own customized version of God (that’s how every religion starts, and most people nowdays do it), but it is a lie then to insist that you belong to some existing religion while at the same time simply ignoring uncomfortable parts of the very core beliefs of that religion. Basically what you’re saying is the same as calling yourself anti-racist, while at the same time saying “Do I believe black people have souls? No.”
Why do you think so? There isn’t a single quote in all of Bible saying people go to heaven when they die. According to Bible, when a person dies, he doesn’t go anywhere until the Rapture. Once Jesus returns, the dead will be resurrected, given their bodies back and heaven will be joined with earth to create a new paradise right here. So according to Bible, no one who has ever died in the entire history of the world, has experienced any kind of afterlife, much less resurrection (except for Jesus, obviously). They’re all still waiting in a state that is similar to being asleep…
So, basically, it is you who decides who truly believes in God and who doesn’t? If someone does something that you believe to be criminal, he cannot possibly be a Catholic, a christian or even a true believer? That’s a lot of judgment to take on…
You can’t have both. You can’t have someone/something control 100% of your life, your actions and events in it, and still think you have free will.
ok.
First. What Bible says about hell. I don`t think hell is smth like that you qouted before. Not all thing in the Bible you should understand literally. But if it is, it doesn`t bother me. I never say to anyone – he/you/she will go to hell.
If all things with the Bible would be that easy, all people would believe to God. Or not, but all would know why. At present, we have the Bible as one and only word of God. But. Jesus says – But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. /John 16:7/. And Counselor (that is Holy Spirit) may teach us. About sin and righteousness. So – the Bible is one and only, but I may understand it because of the Holy Spirit. So, maybe I understand it right? And may be that about hell is only comparison for us to understand why it wouldn`t be nice to get into hell. Not because there is actual fire.
And what happens after death. No one knows, because it is not written clear nowhere. That`s why this is the main topic for all different religions. They may manipulate with this. Because no one knows for sure.
For me – I try to do my best to get closer in my relationship with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. And when He decides what to do with me, I will obey. And whether it will happen right after or 2 million years later, whatever.
I would like you not to think I have ever thought like this. Years and years I have tried to get answers on my questions (just like yours). At present I am learning and learning all the time about Christ, His parish and me in all of this. But I do not have all those questions any more. I have others.
That`s why I try to answer you despite the fact that this converstaion shows my lack of knowledge and basic beliefs. But. Thank God I can improve my beliefs and this is like my little inspiration to dig further into the texts of Bible and God :)
So. About free will.
Yeah, this is tricky. Really. As far as I understand, religions differ on that too. Some say that at first there is God`s will for me to be a christian, that`s when He speaks to me, and I may choose whether to answer Him and to be a christian, or not.
Some say – I decide to look after smth, only then God can speak to me, and I can listen or not. Others say – when God speaks to me, I can`t decide anything, because God decides everything. See? Peope discuss this topic for hundreds of years and don`t know fur sure yet.
And still. God controls my life and death. AND I have my free will. I believe in that. Stop.
For example – I may choose to do smth today. That`s my free will. I may kill someone, I may to serve for poors in India, whatever. But I cannot change God`s plans and if He would like, He may either kill me in the car accident or to let me go where I want to. See? There are both all the time – my free will and God`s mighty power.
So who is right to decide what to take literally and what not to? This is my main problem with any religion, in fact, with any vague and general texts (of which Bible is a shining example) — who decides what is the correct interpretation, and on what principles such a decision is based? How can you tell if your interpretation is inspired by the Holy Spirit or is just a reasonable guess? And if someone else comes along with a different interpretation and is also certain that his is the Inspired Correct One, how can you even begin to find out which is right?
For example, one of the 10 Commandments says “Thou shall not kill.” At first glance it seems a simple and straightforward commandment, we must not take a life. But what is life? Does slaughtering animals count as killing? Is God saying that all believers should be vegeterians? And how do we know it does not even extend to plants as well? And what about standing by and not doing anything while someone else is killed? If you don’t help a dying man, is that breaking the commandment or not? And if the only way to save lives of two, say, children is to kill the man trying to murder them, is a christian supposed to do it? Where does Bible say what God considers life/killing and what not? And if two high priests each insist on different answer, how is a person supposed to know which one to believe?
It is nice, and, in fact, rare to find a christian believer to have a discussion with — someone who doesn’t go for the “logic & reasoning has no place in spiritual matters” every time they are lost for an answer (while the same logic & reasoning was all OK 5 minutes ago when he had some strong arguments). So talking to you is a refreshing change for me. :)
So how can you tell if a car accident or some other tragedy is part of God’s big plan, or just the result of other people’s limited free will? Or good things for that matter? You said that if someone’s life is easy, it is God’s gift. But how can you tell? What if the happy/easy parts are just the result of the free will of the person and others around him helping out? Free will, by definition, is something that is not controlled or purposefully affected by anyone else. So if I go out and decide to give a lot of money to charity — will that be my free will or will that be God doing his work through me? Again and again and again — how can you tell? Not just in any specific case, but generally — what is the principle, the guideline which one can use to determine whether something that someone does is his free will or part of God’s big plan (and/or God’s gift)?
Hey, thanks for your good words ;)
So. Back to discussion.
In the Bible Always Look Into The Context. One of my friend’s jokes is: “Bible says – There is no God.” And indeed Bible says so. But in the context: „The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.” [Psalm 53:2]
See? The same about your example with the commandment. Earlier in the Genesis God has gave food to people, God has give them rules how to kill animals for food and which animals not to kill. So we can see that this “not killing” thing relates only with people.
Sometimes history helps understand what Bible means. Sometimes it is helpful to talk to other Christians – even Jesus explained Torah for His disciples – not all of Torah is understandable for average people.
As for me – sometimes I have to lead bible lessons for kids and adolescents and then I must be sure that everything I say is the same that God wanted for me and for them to know. Then I just have to pray God to lead me and to show me the key to the passage of Bible. And often (after passage has been read very many times) I really understand what is it in there. And what can we study from the Bible. And what we should do with our new knowledge (because it is not worth just read the Bible. It is worth to learn from this Book and to change my life and to live different from now on. Ha! How devilish hard it is sometimes). But even then I try to teach my kids and teens to think for themselves. To speak in those lessons and to think.
And what else – if someone says he knows everything and understand better than the others than this passage is for him: “We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.” [1 Corinthians 8]
And else:
“ 15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.” [ Matthew 7]
And else:
“9For we know in part and we prophesy in part”[1 Corinthians 13]
I believe that there are wise people that understand the Bible much better than I ever will. But I know that there are devoted people that understand the Bible much better than the wise ever will.
That’s why my favourite pastors encourage their parish to read the Bible themselves. To discuss, to talk, to find, to pray, to anger. And to know that the Bible IS controversial. It is healthy to know these things.
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”[Rom 8:28]
This is one of my favourite passage in the Bible. And this means – not that only good things will happen to people, bet that God will make them good for people. See the difference?
So whether smth happens because this is my will or God’s will, God is able to incorporate all of this in His plan.
I understand it like – I may live in peace that God will give me anything I need to get by all events. Good and bad.
How can the 10 commandments have any kind of context to be taken out of, when they are written as completely separate and stand-alone rules? And are always presented as such to this day?
True. However, while reading the passage about the animals, I found another curious thing. One of the commandments says “You shall not kill”, while Genesis 9:6 says “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.” So, the only way both of those can be true is if it a sin to kill, except if you’re killing a murderer. That is, murder is wrong, but revenge murder is the way of God and therefore the right thing to do…?
Mmm, the false prophets quote. That one’s been almost as used as the commandments. Whenever any Christian wants to discredit anything someone else says, Matthew 7 is the chapter he will pull 9 times out of 10. Which, very humanly, is wrong in itself, as all the passage says is some very obvious and logical advice — do not believe liars, and try to discover liars by comparing their words with their deeds. The only problem is, this quote is almost always used to try and silence someone before he has achieved or allowed to do whatever it is he’s trying to, before any “fruit” can even be seen.
No, it says that God helps those who love him. So anyone who exercises his free will and chooses to be an atheist, agnostic or even just plain hates God as a result of a hard life is actually on his own.
Also, while on the subject of free will. Genesis 9:5 says “And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal.” Unless you believe that animals have free will just like humans (I’ve always understood that in Christian belief free will can only be had by someone with a soul?), how can they possibly be held accountable for something that they have no control over?